February 25, 2012
-
Question for my fellow Christians...
Okay, it's been real fun being silly on here and all, but now for some serious questions.
Some of these were running through my mind, yesterday, and I've had them on my mind for a while.And this is embarrassing, because I grew up in a Christian school and I swear we had Bible Class every day and I was there for YEARS and years of my life, you'd think I'd know somethings, but I'm still so confused.
Like the time my youth pastor was trying to tell me aobut the "special relationship" God has with the father-less. I never understood that. He's EVERYONES heavenly father, why would I get some "special relationship", just because I didn't have an earthly father?
And the help for the widows? Yeah, what is that exactly? He tried, boy did he try, but I was stubborn and fought him on it and just didn't get it. I must have misunderstood something. But I'm a stubborn person in general. No surprise.When I was, I believe, 13-14 (8th grade, I believe) was when I made that prayer of Salvation. We had a group at our church and school for a week and they were just... I can't even explain it. Last day, I went forward and just started crying and guess who was the one who led me through the prayer? MY SISTER. I mean, how awesome is that?
Okay, but, I've strayed and I've ignored things and I've purposefully done the wrong things, knowing they were the wrong things. Of course, I do beat myself up a lot and feel guilty over everything. "Okay, did I just have a thought of anger towards someone? I'm horrible and going to hell now, great". Along those lines. So, lets say you get into a disagreement with someone (I was often told never to let the sun go down on a fight, because you never know if you'll be given another day. It's true, really, but lets go with the idea that you just don't do that). Lets say, after said fight, where you've been mean and angry and haven't forgiven said person, you die in a car accident. Do you go to hell, now? Because you were sinning and you didn't ask for forgiveness? OR just saying that ONE prayer, even though you purposefully sinned, is going to save you?
I've asked my husband about this, and another person, and they both believe it has to be a constant thing, you can't just "say a prayer once and be saved". Although, that's what I was raised to believe and still do. My opinion is that, if you say a prayer, but continue to live a life you know is not pleasing to the Lord, that you probably didn't mean it anyway. But if you mean it? that's why you have that voice in your head telling you things are wrong and you need to stop. but, what if you're like me and sometimes ignore that voice? It's like I'm being screamed at, " just stop. Don't you get it? this isn't good for you. Just stop". and I still don't. Or I give it a valiant effort.
I guess I've been feeling scared, lately.
I know, for those that don't believe in God, just ignore this post. I don't want any rudeness, I'm being dead serious, about my faith or this faith that others hold dear. I get it, you don't agree with it, but this is my space, so kindly shut up about it and don't be rude. I really don't care.
But for the rest of you, explain?
I have another question, but this is too long, so I'll wait.
I'm really hungry and running out of time, so this is the best I could possibly explain my question. Sorry. I hope it made sense.
Comments (19)
I come from the school of thought that views salvation as a process and not a one-time thing. Thus, simply saying a prayer wouldn't be enough - ya gotta put your money where your mouth is. I don't buy the idea that if you make a meaningful confession, and then you falter, that your initial confession was invalid; it's perfectly possible for someone to make a genuine attempt and then fail later.
As for feeling scared... well, the Good Book does talk about working out our salvation with fear and trembling, so... *shrugs*
If you want it and need it, I can back all this up. But you have studied the bible and I doubt you need me to fill this reply with scripture. But I will if you want me to.
If you asked God (Jesus) into your heart asked for his forgiveness you are saved. There are very few possible exceptions to that (Apostasy). If you asked God but never changed your life the bible tells us to question if you are what you say you are (Bad fruit doe not grow on a good tree) . But dying in sin (and truly dying) over a recent confessed sin, is not going to happen. Not living the life that God is telling you to live will eat you up in this life. So for your own sake work on living that life. And if you have no guilt over the things you do wrong, then ask yourself did you ever really mean it when you gave your life to God. That said this entry you just wrote makes it clear that God is talking to you. And that you do feel guilt over the parts of your life you have not let God work on.
Hmm. You ask a good question.
I guess I would say that it is beyond a one-time deal, that it should be something you work on and maintain. Yes, we will all have our times of faltering, but I think that that is the wonder of faith and salvation.
Regarding our Father and the fatherless...there are some wonderful scriptures that indicate that God has a special place in His heart for the fatherless. Besides the general Levitical laws that make specific provision within the Israelite society for the orphans, here are some more specific scriptures:
Psalm 10:14--"But You have seen, for You observe trouble and grief, to repay it by Your hand. The helpless commits himself to You; You are the helper of the fatherless.
Psalm146:9--The Lord watches over the strangers; He relieves the fatherless and widows; but the way of the wicked He turns upside down.
....there are more, if you search them out!
Here is a great website with a topical study done by R.A. Torrey
@QuantumStorm - Yeah, there was a quote I saw, the other day, along the lines of, "It's not your belief that makes you a good person, but your behavior". It hit me, because if your not living according to the beliefs you claim to have, then what's the point? As you say, "gotta put your money where your mouth is". That's very true and something I need to work on.
Thanks for answering!
@trunthepaige - Yeah, I think part of my problem is I struggle with confusion over whether certain things really are sin or not, but If I'm feeling guilty over them, there's probably a reason for that and I need to quit it. And thank you for taking the time to answer!
Well, as far as your first question goes, with the orphans and widows, at least, my interpretation, it isn't because he CAN'T have that relationship with everyone else, but those who have lost their husband, or who have no parents, need him to fulfill that aspect of their lives more. They are more likely to rely on him to be their father or lover than someone who has an earthly father or lover...because he is literally ALL they have.
As for your second question, I'm not TERRIBLY sure what you are asking, but I'm thinking it has something to do with the fact that you are trying to EARN your salvation. Forgive me for the cliches but, it isn't something that is earned. It's freely given. You are saved by God's grace, not by how many good things you do, which is wonderful, otherwise we would ALL be going to hell. He just wants to be with us. He loves us, so so much. Just...try to spend some time with him...maybe he'll help you understand.
@Semper_medusa - I think honestly you hit the nail on the head. And even I didn't realize it until you said it. I can't gather my thoughts in a way that will make any sense, right now. So, I'll just leave it at that and come back later.
I will come back to this. Definitely worth asking & answering. Just that I'm feeling tired & fuzzy right now. I plan to relax a bit during this nap time & I'll try to answer tonight with my thoughts.
DON'T let me forget!
@MyTwoCentss - enjoy your time relaxing.
You owe that to yourself. I'll message you later!
I think about all these things a lot myself. I think the whole idea about saying a prayer once and that's the end of it has been detrimental to the Christian faith. OTOH, I know that for some folks, there is that defining moment when they went from heathen to saint. But too many people rely on a prayer said once, all caught up in emotion at the time, and they do not live the life, the only fruit they bear are rotten, and Jesus likely does not know them. Paul said he died to sin daily, so we know that real truly saved folks deal with it. We all will until we get our new bodies like Christ. The feeling of guilt you get should be a big indicator that you are real, because the Bible says that his kids will be dealt with when they do wrong, and if they are not dealt with, then they are "bastards and not sons". And since Jesus did say that those that God gave into His hand, none could "pluck out", I think that means we can't pluck ourselves out, so once saved always saved. But real true salvation means letting go and letting God, true repentance, and genuine desire to serve Him. It is a heart condition. All that doesn't go down the drain because you fall down here and there!
The devil has two tactics for those of us who were raised in church and familiar with the Bible. If we are saved, he constantly wants us to doubt it so we do less for Him. And if we are not, he wants us to believe we are so we won't get that way. So, all this makes me think you probably are, but in the end, only you and God know.
IMHO, there are way too many charlatans in American churches today for them to be much good for our cause.
Lets say, after said fight, where you've been mean and angry and haven't forgiven said person, you die in a car accident. Do you go to hell, now?
If that was true, nobody would go to heaven, lol. If you have sincerely put your faith in Jesus dying for your sins and are not willfully and continually sinning without ever repenting, then you are saved. We can never be good enough or righteous enough to earn our way to heaven.
I've asked my husband about this, and another person, and they both believe it has to be a constant thing, you can't just "say a prayer once and be saved"
Yes, in the context of what I said above, that is true. If someone says a prayer and willfully sins the rest of their life without ever repenting, the fruits of that person points to that they were never truly saved in the first place.
but, what if you're like me and sometimes ignore that voice?
The key is "sometimes". None of us are perfect in obedience. We should always strive prayerfully to obey and do God's will but we are still sinners. Look at Peter who not only denied that he knew Jesus but even started cussing. And we know that Peter is definitely saved.
I guess I've been feeling scared, lately.
That's not always a bad thing, especially if we use that fear to turn towards God.
The BIble says that once we receive Christ meaning at the moment that we confess Him as Lord and Savior that we receive the Holy Spirit which seals us and identifies us as His own until the day of judgement. (ephesians 1:13)
The Gospel is simple, once we confess with our mouths and believe with our hearts, we WILL BE SAVED. Remember we do not EARN our salvation because of the good things that we do, we do things that are good because we love Jesus and because we want to honor Him with our lives. The Bible is true, we cannot base our Christian lives based upon our feelings because remember there is NO condemnation for those who are in Christ.
Jesus right now is standing at the right hand of the Father making intercession on your behalf and on behalf of every Christian at this very moment. Yes, we will sin, yes, we will make mistakes, yes we will do things to harm ourselves and others either intentionally or unintentionally, but God is still good and faithful. His forgiveness transcends our mistakes and transgressions. We come to Him, with our sin and shame, and ask Him for forgiveness and He promises to cleanse us of ALL unrighteousness. Some sin takes longer than others to shed, but He is faithful to walk us to a place of freedom. Remember God is a Father, and His nature is good. Do earthly parents shoot their children when they mess up? No and neither will our perfect Heavenly Father. He is infinitely greater than we!
Remember this Scripture when you doubt your salvation; You are HIS and NO one can pluck you out of his hand!!
John 10:28-29
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all
d
; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.
It's good to see that there are many here who sincerely want to help you with this question.
Here's my take on it. Christ came to earth to become man for the specific purpose of saving His people - paying the price for their sins, which He alone COULD do, having no sin of His own to pay for. When we discuss this question, we need to put it into the proper context. It is not our effort that saves us, it is the faith (the faith that God Himself gives us) in Christ and His dying and being raised for us that saves us. People get so mixed up on this. Good people do not go to heaven. The sinner (which is the only kind of man/woman on earth) who sees His need of forgiveness and sees Christ as his only hope of salvation, is the person who will go to heaven. Our goodness, before or after we are saved does not add to the finished work of Christ. It is blasphemy to equate what pitiful "good" we do to the perfect work He has done.
I think it's a good thing to be repentant and to confess our sin and weakness to God (Who already knows it) so that we keep an open line of communication with God. As we grow in Christ, more things will fall away, but we are not going to become perfect in the flesh. Knowing Him (which is only possible for His children) is His desire for us....Jesus wants us to behold Him in all His glory!
I've struggled with some of these thoughts myself. I know there's a verse in the Bible that says no man can pluck us out of the Father's hand, so I do believe that once saved, always saved. You're not perfect, no one is. We all make mistakes and are going to sin, but that's why Jesus died- to cover those for us. Our sins are great, but His grace is bigger.
Personally, and I could be wrong, but I think you'd have to really stray or completely renounce Christianity in order to not go to Heaven. JMO though.
The Bible says two things that seem to contradict each other but really after some thought they don't.... the two concepts have to be harmonized. On the one had it says whover confesses Jesus as Lord is saved, and on the other hand that many will say Lord Lord, and they never knew him. It says people come to him with their mouths but their hearts are far from him. So the thing is, something spiritual has to go on inside of us. it's refered to as regeneration. Eph. 1:1 talks of this as being made spiritually alive. The result of this is of course we start to confess him with out mouth. But there are those out there also who have not had this work inside of them but for various reasons want to align themselves with God, perhaps it gives them peace of mind, makes them feel good, many reasons. But when regeneration occurs we are convicted of our sins and see our need for a savior, and we come to him for forgiveness. After that, sanctification, is a process. I don't believe the answer is that salvation is a process, but that sanctification is a process. Sanctification is the process of becoming more like Christ. Sometimes due to varying reasons sanctification stalls... perhaps this is wjhat you have experienced. Since you are concerned about it, this is a good sign. If you just justified it, and didn't really care, then that would be a bad sign, that perhaps regeneration really didn't occur. Reasons for sanctification stalling are when we neglect getting to know God through his word, neglecting to be with his people, or sometimes, it is because along the way we accepted teachings that are against his will and cause sanctification to suffer. I hope that helps some, If you need any scriptures or anything to look at about this stuff I'd be glad to share it, or if you have any more Q's I'd be glad to answer. God bless! HMG
This is my opinion on salvation in general. I grew up in a Lutheran home and attended a Baptist school. They are pretty much NOTHING like the other, so I grew up pretty confused. In the Lutheran church, we were baptized as infants and taught that we were saved then. At the Baptist church, of course they made you say some prayer about "accepting" Jesus into your heart.
I have my issues with both now, at this part in my life and in regards to my own faith. I'll explain a little about the conclusions I have come to:
1. We cannot do ANYTHING to achieve our own salvation, and I believe that includes the "accepting" part. I believe that the Holy Spirit is what convicts us and makes us repentant of our sins, because our sinful nature makes it impossible for us to be sorry for anything--we are arrogant and prideful creatures. Saying that prayer won't mean anything if you aren't actually convicted and repentant of your sins.
2. Baptism, is a great gift. I believe it is the gift of the Holy Spirit, which ties into #1. It has many great benefits, but the most prominent one, I believe, is conviction I was talking about earlier. He sort of tugs at our heartstrings to convict us of sin and to help us get through temptation, and do good works. Of course, the Holy Spirit can do this w/o baptism, but I believe that it opens up that door that is totally and incredibly necessary.
3. With the conviction of the Holy Spirit for our sins, I believe that, we are made into the "new creature" Paul talks about in Corinthians. The Holy Spirit continues to convict us and motivate us to live the kind of life we ought.
I think that, it is incredibly short sighted of us to say to someone: "If you say this prayer, then that means you're saved and going to heaven." Because, people are people. We sin. We back slide, and with that, we ignore the convictions at times, which is why it is so important, I believe, to be aware of our own faults and shortcomings. It keeps us humble and aware of the amazing gift God gave us when his Son died on the cross.
The psychologist in also wants to say that doubting is totally normal; it is a part of our human state, and I believe that faith is nothing, if it is not tested. I think that so many people want to put God in a box, and that is just incredibly senseless to me because He is so much more than that. Faith is different for everyone, and their experience and relationship with Christ will be as different as we are.
The Book of James speaks to this the best, that we are not saved by works but our works show and prove our faith, meaning when we live right others see Christ in us. Not only does it prove our faith but we also are sharing the gospel message though are actions. If, however; we claim to be Christians but live in contrast to the word, then we shame the gospel message, not just as it relates to others seeing us but also it drains our own spirituality and self-worth. I dont doubt there are people who think they are saved but are not. but I also do not doubt there are people who are saved who are lost (backsliders). We live in a place where, as Christians, we are in step with the spirit but also we are still physical, and therefore, in step with our flesh and desires as well. Romans 6 and 7 speak to this (Maybe this makes more sense if you read the scriptures I alluded to).
Does that make sense?
@Doubledb - I think you said it best.
Now just a question that has risen from the post. When in reference to the fatherless, is it is speaking of orphans only or of others who have no father figure in their life? Sounds like a dumb questions but I am really curious as to how this would be interepreted.